Weighing In On Old

Another day, another study, ... Yep, just within the last couple of days the Journal of Eating Disorders released a study that says that women of ALL ages complain more about being old than being fat.  When
people are disparaging themselves about age, this is being referred to "old talk."  The Journal of Eating Disorder is concerned that the same type of negative body image issues i.e. anxiety, depression, eating disorders, can now be attributed to women to feeling old.


Turns out that even women as young as 18 are now talking  about  feeling old or complaining about the effects of aging.  Although, it might not surprise you that those teenie-boppers are amateurs in the department of "old talk"  compared to the groups that have a little more age on them.

Carolyn Becker of Trinity University in San Antonio, TX led the study which surveyed over 900 women from America, Britain, and Australia.  Their ages ranged from 18 to 87.  The questions they were given dealt with  "fat talk", "old talk" and overall body dissatisfaction. Sixty-six percent of the women say they engage in "old talk" some of the time.   As you might expect the women over 46 talk the most about being old.   (I don't really think they needed a study to figure that out.)

NOTE:  According to one of the articles pertaining to this study, it stated that men were not  included as their initial research showed men were more comfortable with aging.  There seems to be a prevalent attitude that aging in men makes them more distinguished. Proving once again, that life is not fair.

Thought Number One:  Fat

You might remember the post a couple of weeks ago,  Native American Summer, where I was talking about Rush Limbaugh justifying his remarks when he called Oprah fat. His theory being if you are part of a group that shares a common denominator, you get to talk about the denominator.   Since he is fat, he says he wasn't disparaging her.  He was merely pointing out the fact she is...well...fat.

But we all know it's not nice to call someone fat.  The politically correct thing to do is acknowledge that people come in all shapes and sizes.  Uh-huh...that's how it is supposed to be.

click to enlarge or go to Twitter 
#Iamnotadisease

 The problem arises that, while obesity might be off the table from the sense, we should not judge people, be biased or prejudicial regarding overweight people, the AMA slapped a huge stigma on obesity by calling it a disease.

As you might imagine, that didn't go over in a big (no pun intended) way for people like Marilyn Wann who has spent years advocating for "fat acceptance".  Marilyn who wrote a book Fat!So? along with

Marilyn Wann

other fat advocates have voiced their disapproval of linking "being fat" with having a disease.  On the Twittter thread #Iamnotadisease, there is an ongoing debate whether obesity should be stigmatized by being called a disease. Of course, there are also, those in favor of the change as it provides funds for research and now insurance will have to pay for some of the costs associated with health problems resulting from obesity.  


Thought Number Two: Old and Ageism

According to the study, half the women in the 18-29 age group "occasionally" refer to themselves as old.  By that standard, I am old.  (Sure according to them I would be ancient, but then a 18 year old calling herself old is coo-coo from my vantage point.)

Lucy was using an analogy  with an  old
vehicle being an old body.

We live in a culture that is obsessed with youth, so it makes sense that gray hair and wrinkles are met with a certain amount of disdain.  Fixing the "flaws" of aging is big business in America.  Just last week the American Society of Plastic Surgeons released data that 14.6 million procedures were done last year related to fixing signs of aging.  That is up 5 percent from the previous year. 

While there are the self-proclaimed fat advocates that are upset with being disparaged due to body size, I venture to guess that people are less vocal about how aging is viewed. I might even go far as to say...and I know some people out there aren't going to be happy with my next statement but here goes....obesity is within a lot of people's control while aging is not within the control of any living person.

As for the issue of  "old" being the new bias, more so than fat, .... I was listening to an interview with the Editor-In-Chief of Self Magazine, Lucy Danzinger that was saying that "the opposite of old isn't young...it's healthy and energetic."  She went on to say, "It's like having a car.  You can't necessarily get a new vehicle, but you can take really good care of the one you have."

I don't dispute that we all need to stay healthy and fit but why is aging considered a flaw?  How did we get to a place where having a plasticized taut skin or expressionless Botoxed faces, better than having some natural signs of aging?

From where I sit, I think aging is unavoidable.  I can continue to workout  as vigilantly as I do.  I can stay thin and fit, hopefully but I can't halt all the natural body changes that go with getting older.In theory, I can prolong their onset.

Being fit isn't quite the same thing as being young...but it's still a good thing to be. 

  Hey everyone...meet Gina!!!  Gina has been my trainer for about 5 years now.  She can't reverse my aging but she can keep everything else in check.  Maybe aging will be considered a disease some day and I can have my insurance company pay Gina. 






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Native American Summer

When a conversation has the auspicious start of "Is is just me?" or "I don't mean to offend." or even a "You might not agree with this but...."  you probably know that something is about to be said that will come across as offensive.

So...perhaps it is a bad idea to start my post today begging you to not take offense.  Let me explain myself before you start getting yourself all worked up.  I happened to hear the on-air program of Rush Limbaugh,  as he was trying to explain (in his pompous, egotistical way) that he didn't REALLY call Oprah fat ...but even if he did he would be justified because HE, himself is fat.  His theory being that if you are part of a group you can use the words that you find comfortable to describe that group.

(DISCLAIMER:  Not huge fan on Mr. Limbaugh, but he occasionally he surprises me with moments of keen observation only to lose me in his absurd ego-driven rants. )

Anyway, as I was saying....This brouhaha started after Oprah said a Swiss salesperson made a comment to her implying she couldn't afford a $38,000 dollar handbag.  Oprah was quite vocal that she perceived the comment to be racially motivated.  Rush, supposedly, made a comment that perhaps, the comment wasn't made because of ethnicity but because of negative stereotypes related to her weight.  Well...as one might expect this started a sh** storm of people being offended. 

Thought Number One:  When  Stating Your Opinion Becomes Politically Incorrect

There is hardly a day that goes by without someone accusing someone else of being non-PC, biased, racist, insensitive or  a combination of all of those things.  Yikes, it's a verbal mine-field out there.

It's not only that many of the words that are not offensive to some may, indeed, be offensive to others.... but it's also, how does one know which words are now taboo. (sorry if anyone out there finds the word taboo objectionable because of it's religious roots.) See!!!! Even there, I am probably trashing someone's religious beliefs. 

Take for example:  This year I have noticed a lot of marketing about sales revolving around the Dog Days of Summer. There is an absence of  the term " Indian Summer". Actually, as of late, nearly anyone that is consciously trying to avoid being labeled "insensitive" wouldn't use the word 'Indian' at all.  To be politically correct, you really should use the term 'Native American'.

Cheryl P. family tree

But am I allowed to use the word Indian? My mother's grandfather was Cherokee.  He is the one and only non-Irish or non-Scot that worked his way into our family but still...doesn't that allow me to use the word Indian as I am part Indian.  Let's not over-think the minimal amount of Indian I am.  I am not trying to get into a tribe.  I am just looking for the right to sing "one little, two little, three little Indians without being labeled as a bigot. 

 

 Thought Number Two:  No Wonder We Are Confused


It seems that there are so many contradictions out there.   I would suggest that we are all being challenged as to what exactly is politically correct. 

• Saying someone is fat is considered  offensive and, most cases rude.  However, there  are new rules classifying obesity as a disability.  So we can recognize that people can be disabled by fat but not say the word in relationship to an individual  person...well unless you are talking about celebrities and politicians being fat, then you can have them on talk shows to discuss it. The whole country seems to be comfortable with calling a certain politician fat to the point they would be labled bullies if they were still in grade school and no one seems to be having a problem with that. 

• We can't pray in school or put religious symbols in our government office buildings but we put "In God We Trust" on our money or have witnesses swear on a Bible in a courtroom to assure everyone of their honesty. 

• We can hear and say offensive  racial slurs in song lyrics and in movie dialogue but not say those same  slurs in public without consequences in both your reputation and your pocketbook. 

•  There are laws that make it illegal to yell "FIRE" in a public place (if, in fact, there is no fire) but it's within the rights of  abhorrent people to yell hateful slurs at a soldier's funeral.

A Pastafarian won the right to wear his
colander  for his state ID

OHHHH...See ...I knew it....I am getting into trouble here aren't I?  I am not endorsing using racial slurs or

thinking it is kind to call people fat...what I am saying is that the lines are blurred.  Is is more PC to wear a pasta strainer on one's head as the most recent case of a follower of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster won the right to do, than it is for someone to pray a prayer in a public school?  

So for my part., I am avoiding all words that hint of any kind of bias.  No longer will I say the word Indian, even though I have half of a drop of Indian blood.  I won't use the term Indian Summer. Instead I will use the the term "Dog Days of Summer."  

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Over the Line

Today, I was clicking around on the Internet looking at all the current fashion styles.

click, click, click.....oh yeah,... click, click,.... [time is a' wasting] .....click, click, click....

This was more of an exercise on keeping up with what's going on in the world, not actually thinking I was going to buy any of the Fashion Attrocities Currently Trending.  (FACTs).  I am aware that I have crossed some type of invisible line that puts me in a "NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE" zone of fashion. In case, you are not understanding due to my poor phrasing....it's not that I am no longer acceptable as being a human,  but certain fashions are no longer acceptable for me to wear because I am on the far side of 30.  The very, very, very, far side of thirty.

 I guess the point is moot as there isn't any way  that I can actually pull off, without looking ridiculous, any of the FACT stuff, anyway.  It's not that I wouldn't love to be able to wear pants that have the word "Juicy" across my ass but at my age it would be perceived more creepy than cool. 

Which leads me to where was the line that I crossed that made yoga pants that looked like this, totally inappropriate?

Oddly, enough...when I was clicking my little fingers to the bone, looking for what is deemed appropriate for my age group...there is NOT ONE....NONE...NARY A... picture on the Internet to be found...... of a person past the age of 30 in any type of track suit, warm up suit, sweatpants,  NOTHING, NADA...

I am pretty confident that all 50+ year
olds have an abdomen that looks like this,
ours are just harder to locate.

Now one would think that one could find a picture of a more mature model (notice my avoidance of using the word "older") wearing a velour track suit. While I am very atypical in my aversion to velour tracksuits, as most of my age group loves them, I don't find fuzzy bright colored clothes rock my world.   Maybe not my taste, but on a good afternoon in suburbia, you could play a drinking game using velour track suits as your target.  I have to warn you though...in Overland Park, Kansas you would be too drunk to drive after about 20 minutes.  If you remove the word "velour" and just turn the game into getting to drink each time you spot a woman in "sweats" you are going to need  to be scraped up off the pavement in less than 10 minutes.

Sweats and jeans, sweats and jeans,

But I digress...my point today is....where is the line that makes certain styles off limits based on age.

There was a time, not so long ago that women weren't supposed to wear sleeveless tops if they were of a certain age.  This "age" wasn't clearly defined but the inference was "if you were past the age of "total firmness", you were too old.   If there was any of the hangy" under arm stuff, it was strictly verboten to be donning anything that didn't cover up at that area of your flab.  Lately, everyone is feeling justified to wear sleeveless tops as Michelle Obama has set the bar high as age goes. That is to say, over 30 at least.  Thank, god her signature design choice isn't the "fascinator" as Kate Middleton Windsor's is (while I can appreciate how good they look on Kate) or we would all be looking like this:





Sorry, sleeveless is "off limits".

For you men that are currently rolling your eyes and muttering under your breath, "how stupid is this?" and "what the hell does it matter?".  You have a point...stupid it is... BUT...if I were to tell you after 30 you no longer can wear denim jeans because only young men are supposed to wear denim jeans, you would be a bit more empathetic. 

AND SPEAKING OF JEANS....

Women's jeans come in a lot of versions such as boot cut, jeggings, slim cut, straight leg, high waist, low rise....and the infinite mix of those such as "tall, bootcut, acid washed, low rise jeans for juniors adds up to a lot of decisions to be made.    It's like ordering Starbucks but the penalty of getting the order wrong is your butt is going to look really bad for the whole world to see. 

Clearly you have to decide the cut, the fit, the cost, the quality and the most important consideration is DO THEY LOOK LIKE "MOM JEANS"?????? If women just can't figure out the difference, there is a line of jeans named "It's Not Your Daughters Jeans" that sell in major department stores.  They are a little pricey but they are supposed to make us feel all trendy like our daughters are, (I guess it is presumptive that our daughters are fashionistas)  and the bonus (beside being all trendy) is our hoo haa isn't hanging out.

Again, I hear the collective "WTH...from you men out there.  I know, I know...you are thinking " What difference does that make?"   Just go ask your, wives, your  girlfriends, and/or the girls that are friends, and they will tell you this is important. It is the fashion law that women "of a certain age" no longer  are "supposed" (highly advised not to)  wear something that looks like this:

If this was gender equality, there really should be "tall, low rise, young macho jeans" for the young guys and everyone over 30ish should be "suggested" to wear "daddy jeans".

As it is, you guys just seem to buy jeans...not age specified jeans, or "pre or post" parenting jeans...just jeans.

How you look in jeans, might be another story.

Which might require some honesty from those around you.

So off I go to find age appropriate clothing and put my feet in my Keds... while  I strive to be trendy and cool.

Who's Lazy??

A realtor friend called me last  week surprised by the responses she had been getting from  people that she had confided to that she was getting out of the real estate biz.  I completely GET that this business is in the dumper and not a whole lot of laughs right now which have real estate agents dropping like fleas off a recently dipped dog. It really is the trifecta of bad jobs.  Because of the crummy market, no clients, because we're self employed, no benefits, and because of the prior two reasons, no paychecks.

In part she is annoyed by the fact  that everyone that she has told about her impending departure from the working world, is "What are you going to do with yourself???"  The inference being if you aren't gainfully employed, you must be a lazy bum.   (just to make a point, most Realtors aren't GAINFULLY employed right now anyway, so really what is the difference?) I see her dilemma. How is one to handle this??
Well, I think she has several ways to handle this. 

A.   The nice approach, "My husband is going to support me while I decide what my next career opportunity might be."
B. A more direct approach like " I am going to set my butt on the couch and fritz away the day reading, watching TV and playing on the computer".
C.  It's none of your damn business what I do with my time! Who asked you anyway???

Then as luck would have it last Saturday I noticed an interesting story headline in the Kansas City Star.  Seems there was a study conducted by the Center for Disease Control to determine the physical activity levels of every county in America.  While the CDC is calling it lethargy, all the articles about it are calling it the laziness survey.  Turns out the county that realtor pal and I live in is the LEAST lazy county in the state.
Collectively we are go-getters.  With only 17 percent of Johnson County's population being lazy, there is a pretty good chance that it's neither of us that are slugs. 

Local news release:
http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/lifestyle/CDC-report-details-amount-of-laziness-among-adults-in-counties-across-the-country


The national map showing all the counties where "lazy" resides

http://apps.nccd.cdc.gov/DDT_STRS2/NationalDiabetesPrevalenceEstimates.aspx?mode=PHY


For you that have been reading my blogs for awhile, you already know that I will have to mentally dissect all of this and find the good, the bad and the weird. 


Here are just of few of my reason for thinking this survey might be sh*&%.

A.  They didn't talk to me.   If you clicked on the above map, you may have noticed ONLY ONE county in Kansas faired well.  More importantly, that is the county that Realtor friend and I live in.  If a person is "guilty by association" does that also mean "take credit and latch onto any good trait by association".

 Obviously, I didn't get to weigh in on who is lazy locally. I know a lot of people that LOOK lazy.  The Walmart clerk that seemed annoyed that I bothered her to check out may or may not be productively challenged. The group of people at the gym this morning that were using the equipment like lounge chairs while they visited looked less than motivated.  Actually, I can think of a few people that I am absolutely sure fit the definition of shiftless. 

 What if the CDC people had knock on my door?  Where would I fit in their definition of who is lethargic?

What would the questionnaire look like?

1.  Are you employed?  Yes,  but I make next to no money and I avoid working with banks (foreclosures) and working with clients that don't qualify to work with banks  (couldn't get a loan if their life depended on it).            X       Lazy         _______Not Lazy

2.  What to you do with you time?  I write a blog      X        Lazy            Not Lazy
3.  OK we are done here.  You are in the 17 percent  lazy group, so I will be going now.


According to the study,the CDC based respondents on the presence of Diabetes II, their weight, and activity levels.  In my opinion that leaves a lot of variables.  Just sayin', there have to be some thin, non diabetic, folks out there that are lazy and conversely aren't there some over weight people that have diabetes that are working hard. What if I work hard but would actually  much rather be sitting on the couch watching TV, and shoving food down my throat does that make me a closeted lazy person?

B.  They point out a "Lethargic Belt" running from Mississippi up through West Virginia along with Oklahoma coming along for the ride.   Who did they talk to in those states and what in the world did they say???
Because I lived a large part of my early childhood in Arkansas and some of my adult life in Texas, I am curious if the survey takers weren't confused by the slow drawl.  I personally know back in the day that I had a very pronounced southern drawl there were people  who thought I was slow in more ways than one. Let's assume some people are quick to judge and slow to know.


C.  Here is the biggest point to raise my skepticism.  This study was done in 2008 and just now is being released.  It took the folks at the CDC,  THREE years to get there homework done.  Are we really supposed to believe anything dealing with "lack of productivity"  from a group that took a survey 3 years ago and just now getting around to releasing it?  The results are already obsolete. Surely, some of those lazy people from Oklahoma or Mississippi have moved to  be near the energizer bunny types that took the survey in Colorado three years ago.

My take on these types of studies are that they are so skewed that they are unbelievable and absolutely unreliable.   I have no idea how they gathered their data but there are just too many variables.  What a productive, busy, valuable life looks like to one seems totally devoid of worth to another.  I have worked at many full  and part time jobs, but some have been less fulfilling than the years I was a stay-at-home mom. There have been times I have spent  filling my time keeping our home running, doing charitable work, gardening, reading, and a host of other things that I have a passion for.  Who is to be the judge of my ambition level  other than me. (and maybe hubby.)

The good today....fulfilled busy lives take a lot of forms.

The bad today.... Stupid outdated surveys that are probably no where close to the real numbers.

The Weird today....why did it take 3 years to put that study together and release the survey results.

Also weird is this self described lazy person that didn't want to get off the couch to retrieve a beer. Yo Dude, for $1500 bucks you can be this lazy too.

Fat Bigot

The title of today's little foray into my "life is good, no it's not", conflicted mind, I am not talking about a bigot that is fat. I am talking about all the bigots out there that have biases, intolerance, and pure disgust for people that are fat.

Weight issues are the BIG daddy of all my conflicted theories.

I have been firmly planted on both sides of the fence in regards to being overweight.
In yesterday's blog post, I was talking about things that offend people (or not) and I can't think of anything that pushes people's hot buttons more that discussions of body size.

A little background to get the ball rolling....In the past (say 15 years ago or so) I put on some weight. I really have no idea how much as I decided denial was the first way to fight it. I simply quit weighing myself. That worked out pretty well for a while. We were living in Nebraska (that period is 4 homes,3 moves ago, for those keeping track) when the pounds starting accumulating.

Before all you Nebraskans out there take offense at the NE to fat correlation, let me tell you up front that I really liked living in Nebraska BUT...it turned out I started living my life from a very "comfort" oriented point of view and all ideas of staying fit went by the (Nebraskan) wayside. Our dear friends also were eating all the comfortable homey goodies. I was fitting into the granny looking, cookie making, pie baking, environment nicely. The big flaw with looking like someone's rotund little cookie making grandma is that my two kids were barely college age at that point. I was not to be a grandma for another 16 years. Another ex-Nebraskan, had her own interesting theory.  She said she thinks that there is a subliminal need to pack on layers of fat (much akin to a bear getting ready to hibernate) to survive the winters there.  As soon as she moved south, she too took off a whole lotta layers of fat. Her theory not mine but it fits.  HMMM what should we call that theory???  How about the Hefty Husker Theory.  To be fair we should also have the Dakotas' Dowdy Theory or the Wisconsin Packer-onners Theory and given enough time to think about other cold places, I am sure there are other theories to be formulated.

Our home was situated in a community that had a private restaurant called the Saddle Club. The Saddle Club had themes to each night's meals. There were Italian Nights, Mexican Fiesta Night, Texas BBQ, and hundreds of other creative food themed meals. I can't tell you all of them as I was way too busy eating to notice.

As we made our way through the various foody themes, we made great friends. Really great friends!!! With great friends we started having our own little get togethers which all revolved around food.  Turns out you just can't have to many pot luck suppers. 

One of the most notable was once a month, hubby and I would have an adult slumber party. (you with the dirty minds out there...we are talking G rated slumber parties) We would pick a movie and a matching meal. One example is we had the movie "Fried Green Tomatoes" Our meal had among other things, fried chicken, mashed potatoes, cream gravy, lemon meringue pie, and the fried green tomatoes.

We ate, we watched movies, and anyone that was tired was welcome to spend the night. (Everyone brought their sleeping bags or pillows and blankets in the event they chose to stay). The bonus of staying would mean they could stick around for more eating in the morning.

Sooo, after 6 years of eating my time away in Nebraska, I had packed on a lot of weight. I do know that I was 10 dress sizes bigger then than I am today. Not sure what that is in pounds but it is a LOT.

Here are a few facts, I know.

1. On my body fat looks bad. I see attractive people all the time that probably weigh at least the same or more than I have weighed and they look fine. I did not. No matter how nice of clothes I bought, nothing fit nicely. I was uncomfortable. My blood pressure went up.  A slogan that applies to my situation..You can put lipstick on a pig but it is still a pig.  For me this could be words to live by.

2. When I got fat, my self esteem went down. I was disgusted with myself and my lack of willpower.

3. I learned a lot about myself and I learned a lot about tolerance and lack thereof.

It turns out, (some) people treat others differently depending on body image. I noticed a very obvious difference in how people related to me depending on my size. Of course, this depends on the size of the person you are dealing with. Fat people treat other fat people in one way, thin people in another. AND VICE VERSA  Some thin people treat fat people like a whore at a church picnic.

 Funny, now that I am my thin self, I am HYPER- aware of all  the nasty comments being made behind fat peoples backs. Well, actually it isn't always behind their target's back.  RUDE and HURTFUL. 

By the time we moved to Texas (refer to post about the "Didn't know it could get that HOT") I had to lose the weight or lose my mind.

Here's the thing. I know how to eat right. I had gained and lost smaller amounts of weight prior to my fat period. With all the voracious reading I do, I have read 100's of books about proper nutrition. I totally KNOW about healthy eating. I had to start actually putting into practice all this knowledge.

Oh, yeah, the other component, EXERCISE. UGH. Kill me now!!!! I was probably 90 pounds overweight (again, not sure) and it was 110 degrees. SHIT!!!! I was miserable. The good news is, once I started eating correctly like real people are supposed to do, I dropped weight pretty quickly.

Six months or so later, when I actually waddled onto a scale, I figured out that I had about 40 some pound left to go. As luck would have it I met Texas pal and we have walked nearly every morning together since March of 1999.

Additional things I know...

1. I don't mind exercise anymore. I walk every morning. I joined a gym and get there 3 times a week without fail. I meet with a trainer from time to time to go over where I am and where I need to be.

2. I feel better being thin. Not just physically but emotionally.

3. And the thing I am most sure of, is that there is some serious discrimination and bigotry against fat people.

Looking at this subject from the Good Cop, Bad Cop mentality. I hate to see the sneering, jeering behavior that makes people rude and insufferable in their treatment of an overweight person BUT I also, think any person carrying excess lbs. to the point it impacts their life negatively in any way, needs to take some personal responsibility.

First step....Get off your plump posterior and educated yourself. Read a book about nutrition. Don't starve yourself, just start eating correctly.

Second step....Start moving...Exercise is the key.

Third step...If you can't do first and second step on your own, get help.  Find a pal, a dietitian, a personal trainer, a gym or anyone else that can motivate you. Also, a visit to your doctor is a must. My doc wasn't too harsh with me but  the numbers weren't good on things like cholesterol and BP. (when the weight came off the numbers became impressive)

My first step in TX was to go to a local university that offered a free assessment and the use of a workout room that was so cheap that just about anybody could use it.  Because it was staffed by grad students as part of their course work in  phys ed, hiring a personal trainer also was dirt cheap.  Pilate classes were free. (GREAT PRICE=FREE)

Since this blog is all about my conflicts and observations in life, I am including this topic. For a lot of years, I continue to try to eat healthy and live a healthy lifestyle. I have relapses and have to start again. Never ending battle....


The Good....Feeling proud of yourself for moving in the right direction.  Setting a goal and working toward that goal is really rewarding.

The Bad....Rude people that treat others badly.  Why do the narcissistic personalities out there seem to think they are better than anyone else???    Remember my mind game "Bus Headed for a Cliff".  Some of these rude asses are on board.  On a future post I will discuss the folks that have earned a permanent bus pass.


The Weird---An observation of mine!!!!  The RUDER THAN RUDE person seems to always be the one that seems to have the biggest most obvious flaws.  In my opinion, we can all have opinions regarding other people but we still should  be civil to each other. (at least in person, you can always have an imaginary bus)